Hunter or Killer - what is your attitude in Ji Geiko?
are you a "hunter" or a "killer" in Ji-Geiko / Shiai?
In last evening training I got times again strongly on the "nose" from our Mudansha.These young chaps become from day to day unbelievably stronger and “more impudent”. No more respects for Senseis. :wink: I must train urgently more intensively. Belonged also to become in the Ji-Geiko still more consistent and more compromiseless. Is it really like that?
After a fantastic fight with my Japanese Sensei, sometimes he says that I reach already 4,6 on his scale, that means being nearly Godan. But on days like yesterday I am occasionally "splitted" by a 4 Kyu.
On better days a Ji Geiko / Shiai is like a "hunt" for me:
How strong is his Kensen, reacts he to Osae or must I work with Shikage Waza. What happens if I suddenly shorten my Maai? Does he react to a feint, can I come over the Ura side… etc.…? It may sounds strange, but rather than fighting with a killer instinct, I feel more as a cool hearted hunter, hunting his victim. If my Men miss the "target" I am instantly starting again the hunt.
Concentrate me on my points, try to set the opponent under pressure, but also to "control" him at the same time. This might perhaps be too passive (impression)? I behave in the Shiai similarly and unfortunatly must pay for it frequently, though there I am more focused and "simpler" in my attitude. But sometimes "rabits" bite back! :ko:
All this happens very consciously, logically and concentrated. I would think that this is not as to designate or to plan, since I mostly state, recognize and observe normally only the actual presence condition. Since I am relatively relaxed in the torso, I react quite intuitively e.g. with Oji Waza or Debana. My "hunting-program" switches "automatically" from a straight center attack to Osae to Harai, if the aforementioned doesn't work. Thus it's not like that that I "think" about it and it's also not so that each cut is pre-determined!
I am quite self conciousness in the fight, yet I am simply momentarily somewhat uncertain whether I drift perhaps straight somewhat from the “path of the virtue”. I don't want to discuss that at the moment with my Sensei.
Me interested now whether my attitude in the fight is okay or not. How to improve it? Me interested with which attitude you are fighting. Do you switch the killer instinct on by push of a button? Do you close the eyes and then ..."Los Alamos"...cavallery...? Do you spy the opponent and do fight tactically? Or do you concentrate on something special e.g. attitude, Kamae, Seme, Hasuji, Zanshin or whatever ...?
Because in daily training we have different aproaches and deal with Kenshi on different level, let's primary concentrate on our behaviour in a Shiai / competition. That's makes it easier.
Okay, let it's bring it on the point :
Hunters mentality ("presence+observation") or killer mentality ("sutemi + ???").? What do you think?
best regards
well spoken,
and today? are you "conscious, clear, present, focused" while you create the openings or are you "programmed" in Shiai?
Computes your brain constantly each new situation in the background, while your eyes are watching the "booty"? ( I don't mean: re-thinking or planning!)
Or have you rather another feeling? ( A french friend feels as being in the middle of the ocean ? )
would like to know,
best regards
are you a "hunter" or a "killer" in Ji-Geiko / Shiai?
Okay, let it's bring it on the point :
Hunters mentality ("presence+observation") or killer mentality ("sutemi + ???").? What do you think?
best regards
Nowadays I am trying to be in Zen.
Being killer/hunter has it's advantages, but also disadvantages.
Just trying to do the simple thing, in a simple way.
MG
shiai should be more cautious hunter stalker this is what uve been training for so why be reckless here
So not too useful really...at least not to me. I prefer to see a video anyway. Its a lot easier to stand back and be a bit more objective that way.
Ironicly I can only remember the ippon, not very detailed, just along the line of 'well suddenly I saw his kote hanging there unprotected' 'or he came and I leaned backwards and got hit', or 'well I did sem, took center and just hit him'
But frame, cronology, how long it took all the other hits. ?? I really wouldn't have a clue.
.....
Just trying to do the simple thing, in a simple way.
MG
Hello,
could you please elaborate it a bit more? What happens inside you, when you do a "simple thing" a "simple way"?
best regards
there are still some participants of the last EKC in Berne /Switzerland in that forum. Aren't they? I would like to get some reports from their expériences in Shiai there.
I remember having seen a fight between D'Artangan and a french guy (was it Blanchard?) How was the attitude there?
let me know
Best regards
If it was the teams then he fought Soulas, I had Blanchard.
Who's attitude, their's or our's?
Gibbo
Actually a few GB team members stalk these pages....but I'll answer from my own point of view.
1 Expect nothing in advance. Even people who you think you know can produce things you would be surprised at. Expecting things that may not happen will only lead to getting hit.
2 I'm nervous most times. I find a slight nervous feeling is helpful actually, but I have to make sure that it doesn't get out of control.
3 No.
4 I think you should not feel like you are superior to someone else unless it is after the result and you know it was a genuine victory. Even then I would prefer to call it satisfied with a good job well done.
5 and, er 5 I used to enter the shiajo and just try to massacre my opponent quickly, but that will only take you so far. I'm not so sure about "hunting" for ippon, but I'm definately trying to be more patient and analytical. Though as Neil pointed out elsewhere, if the situation demands it, you do what it takes, there are others relying on what you do.
Like I said, in the past, it was killer all the way, and it won a few competitions, but like I've mentioned before, its time to change to something a bit more flexible, and which will mean I can continue to progress into old(er) age. My best result recently was in the team shiai at the EKC. Alot more focussed, alot less wasteful actions, and a better control of what I'm doing.
As for Honda sensei, his input is invaluable, and he has been a massive influence (along with my dojo sensei) on my path through kendo.
As for learning from my experiences, better to learn from your own I think!
Gibbo
Hello Gibbo,
How are you?
Thanks for this insight in the small world of Kendo Shiai. I can't help to think that having to win is a burden that you can do without. But getting in there and losing that feeling or at least suppres it for the time being is something very Mushin like if I may say so. Also glad to hear that you acknowledge that massacaring(sp?) your opponent will get you so far, this gives some hope for us who are not so able in this. If the essays of Honda Sensei are anything to go by then you guys sure are lucky to have him around.
What I wanted to know, if I may, how does Sumi Sensei who you will only see 1 weekend a year, influences you guys who have to be on the top of things?
I find his Seminars always very inspirational but after two months the feeling is gone that I had on the Seminar at Rickmansworth. Does it elevate you in a way and with the help of Honda Sensei keeps you there? I was just wondering about this when I read all the replies.
Regards,
Alphons
could you please elaborate it a bit more? What happens inside you, when you do a "simple thing" a "simple way"?
best regards
Doing simple things in a simple way you will not be lost and attempted to find yourself trying to "hungry" open opponent's guards or find a way to execute your preferable waza, or even trapped by the opponent.
Otherwise oftenly you miss your own control (mind and physically) and fail not executing the suitable (and sometimes easy) waza for the situation created.
Of course, it's necessary long time of practice and a whole process of hunting/killing before. I just posted as your reference in a future, because I liked your first question.
Good practice!
MG
How are you?
Thanks for this insight in the small world of Kendo Shiai. I can't help to think that having to win is a burden that you can do without. But getting in there and losing that feeling or at least suppres it for the time being is something very Mushin like if I may say so. Also glad to hear that you acknowledge that massacaring(sp?) your opponent will get you so far, this gives some hope for us who are not so able in this. If the essays of Honda Sensei are anything to go by then you guys sure are lucky to have him around.
What I wanted to know, if I may, how does Sumi Sensei who you will only see 1 weekend a year, influences you guys who have to be on the top of things?
I find his Seminars always very inspirational but after two months the feeling is gone that I had on the Seminar at Rickmansworth. Does it elevate you in a way and with the help of Honda Sensei keeps you there? I was just wondering about this when I read all the replies.
Regards,
Alphons
Hello Alphons,
I'm fine, but I've caught a cold and I'm very tired, so I'm a little grumpy at the moment, I'll try and brighten up for you!
I don't think that my way of approaching shiai has much to do with mushin. Mushin comes through continued practise (in my opinion), by training your body. Your mind and the approach to shiai is more like preparing yourself ready to potentially deliver the "mushin" uchi that you are talking about. I don't think that someone who is too nervous or too embedded in the fight (you know what I mean?) can deliver an attack like the one you are thinking of.
And we are incredibly lucky to have Honda Sensei to practise with, he is a great teacher who understands and can break down very well anything kendo based that he explains.
As for Sumi Sensei, well, I like to think that as we can only practise with this sort of teacher once or twice a year, if that, then when you practise with these poeple you should take away one important piece of learning from them, and then keep that piece in your keiko, try to make it better, and use your own sensei to watch it and advise you on it. If you try to have a practise as if it were at a seminar with 2 8thdan every keiko, you would soon become depressed with your own kendo, as these people have the ability to pull your kendo up to a higher level than you could normally do, so when that doesn't quite happen in your everyday dojo you will naturally wonder what is going on and what has gone. One step at a time, it works for me!
Hunting I would think is waiting, calculating etc. calmly I agree, apllying seme, trying to determine what his opponent does. Nonetheless he is quite dependant on the others actions. But he tries to control every aspect so he can get a point
But why would you think someone with a killer instinct is active and agressive, I would say the contrary, a killer is sythe one that is really calm, he has just one thing on his mind, that is the kill, the goal, the point.
In soccer that's the difference between a good striker and an excellent striker, the killer instinct, the fact that they do not think too much about the obstacles to score a goal but just see the opportunities and exploit them.
In kendo you could apply that too, a hunter is someone who wants to overcome the obstacles between him and his point by controlling the enviroment he's in, while a killer doesn't think about all the obstacles but sees opportunities and exploits them.
Kendo is right now the same way and I am still a guy swinging a stick. Some times I do well and I take some small pride in doing well. Some times I am lost and have no idea how to progress. Yet with the guidance of my sempai, I grow more knowledgeable each day and some day I will be doing kendo, yet perfection will always be out of reach.
True, but it's still interesting to hear how the more shiai-experienced people react to it.
Jakob
there are still some participants of the last EKC in Berne /Switzerland in that forum. Aren't they? I would like to get some reports from their expériences in Shiai there.
I remember having seen a fight between D'Artangan and a french guy (was it Blanchard?) How was the attitude there?
let me know
Best regards
true but some people can create a chance out of the worst positions
So not too useful really...at least not to me. I prefer to see a video anyway. Its a lot easier to stand back and be a bit more objective that way.
Talking about shiai.
I remember what I was "trying" to do.
Sometimes can remember how exactly the opponent moved and I reacted.
Maybe because always I am trying to "do" something, not just fighting (killer's mind) to get ippon.
This cames naturally from the keiko part.
MG
The hunters are usually attackers or offensive midfielders, they lay out the lines run from position to position where they can get and determine the gameplay, or run to a free shooting position. Planning and looking for that opening to arise for that action you can make.
Killers are also attackers but pur sang, they have a tendancy to just show up and score a goal often with only two or three moves, or sometimes with just one touch. They get the ball and all seem to exist for them is the goal, like recieving a ball on the chest with their backs to the goal and turn and score in one motion, scoring seems like an instinct. I sometimes feel that way in soccer but some people in our team seem to have it all the time.
Unfortunately my kendo isn't as good as my soccer, so I'm thinking and planning what my next move is, trying hard to learn what I've been thought. So I'm hunting for an opening, since my killer instinct seems to be on vacation every time I do kendo.
Hello,
just a little disgression. In Germany we use to say the stupiest goal striker is the best one. Because he thinks less, and "sees/feels/sense" the oportunities and execute without thinking/reflection etc...so he scores more. :)
...just an idea!
Me would interest if there aren't analogies between my idea of a "hunter" ( computing, analyzing, cool calculating observing the state of presence during a shiai - but not thinking, planning!), without being "hungry" to open opponent's guard or even being trapped to Mad God's intentions to Zen?
What makes the difference to Mad God's concept?
Here's a question (slightly off thread). In competition, especially
under pressure, how much are you able to remember a fight after it has finished? And to what extent is that memory useful for analysis?
Actually I can only really remember th odd "frame" from the fight, and usually never any ippon. I don't know about other people. But seriously, I remember practically nothing from most shiai.
So not too useful really...at least not to me. I prefer to see a video anyway. Its a lot easier to stand back and be a bit more objective that way.
I'm sure you'll rain punishment on me at next squad training, but... resisting the urge to pick up this kind of stuff is more difficult than trying to resist the urge to hit your leopardskin do. Guess I'm stuck where I should be.
Matt Matt Matt, punctuation...? Is that your best? Oh well, see if I care! Punctuation took up a, massive: part of my bra;'in, so by allowing ! it to fall to (the) kendo dark side. I am more powerful "than" I was before@ Bwa ha , ha. hah ha. haaaa!
Who's attitude, their's or our's?
Gibbo
Hello,
we have the fortune to have here a member from UK NT team. great!
Maybe you could let us know ( if it is not your secret :wink: ) how was your attitude in the Shiai at EKC?
1. Did you expect something in advance?
2. have you been nervouse?
3. Have you felt quite experienced enough for the task?
4 Superior feeling?
5. Have you been on the cool analyzing observing "hunt" ?
5 Did you go in it with feror and fighting spirtit in "killer" mood?
What "system" has proofed to be the best to you in the past?
In what mood have you goten the best "results"?
Since some time Honda Sotaro Sensei is caring about the NT team. You can find his famouse writings at the official BKA site. Feel you a practical result for yourself in shiai from his teachings?
Let us non NT players a little bit participate of your expreiences. We all gladyl will apreciate your comments and help.
best regards
Actually a few GB team members stalk these pages....but I'll answer from my own point of view.
1 Expect nothing in advance. Even people who you think you know can produce things you would be surprised at. Expecting things that may not happen will only lead to getting hit.
2 I'm nervous most times. I find a slight nervous feeling is helpful actually, but I have to make sure that it doesn't get out of control.
3 No.
4 I think you should not feel like you are superior to someone else unless it is after the result and you know it was a genuine victory. Even then I would prefer to call it satisfied with a good job well done.
5 and, er 5 I used to enter the shiajo and just try to massacre my opponent quickly, but that will only take you so far. I'm not so sure about "hunting" for ippon, but I'm definately trying to be more patient and analytical. Though as Neil pointed out elsewhere, if the situation demands it, you do what it takes, there are others relying on what you do.
Like I said, in the past, it was killer all the way, and it won a few competitions, but like I've mentioned before, its time to change to something a bit more flexible, and which will mean I can continue to progress into old(er) age. My best result recently was in the team shiai at the EKC. Alot more focussed, alot less wasteful actions, and a better control of what I'm doing.
As for Honda sensei, his input is invaluable, and he has been a massive influence (along with my dojo sensei) on my path through kendo.
As for learning from my experiences, better to learn from your own I think!
Gibbo
An interesting insight.
Here's a question (slightly off thread). In competition, especially
under pressure, how much are you able to remember a fight after it has finished? And to what extent is that memory useful for analysis?
Gibbo
And so the mystery as to why Gibbo is so good at kendo is finally cleared up. He's sacrificed that part of the brain normally allocated to punctuation usage to kendo.
I'm sure you'll rain punishment on me at next squad training, but... resisting the urge to pick up this kind of stuff is more difficult than trying to resist the urge to hit your leopardskin do. Guess I'm stuck where I should be.
You'll always need a bit of both. Because, as mentioned before, both "hunting" and "killing" are inextricably connected, in your words I'd say you should hunt with a killer instinct. It's much easier to remain at both temperatures indefinitely, as battle is always fluctuating -- when your opponent decides to distance him/herself and wait for an opening, you should concentrate on control and visual stimuli -- when your opponent presents an opening, exerting your attack is a general "rule". The fact is, everyone you practice with in jigeiko is going to fight differently, so more importantly is your ability to adapt your own way for theirs without losing any effectiveness. Granted, not one style or method is perfect, so I'll always stress that you should flow with the waves of the "combat", make every move of your opponents' advantageous to you, and always try to learn more, whether you "win" or "lose". Acheiving a good balance is most important to me :happy:
That's because the two go hand in hand and cannot as such be seperated out.
To learn how to attack, you need to attack. So, you attack, attack, attack and attack...and slowly and surely, if you keep attacking honestly, you will learn how to attack effectivly and how to create openings..initially on people less experienced, then on your peers and then occasionally, on your seniors.
Jakob
when I have read the past contributions I had somewhat to smile. Here it becomes already literarily. Munins contribution pleased me very much. As genuine soccer fan (FSV Mainz 05 plays in the 1. german league) there also are given analogies to Wout.
Nevertheless I still would like to precess my thread starter:
It's neither about "killing" or "hunting", nor about "enemies" or real "victims. It's rather about our attitude in Shiai. :wink:
It concerns to me the contrast between intuitive, active, "agressive", let's say “killer instinct”-Kendo and the cooler, ( lazier ? passive ?) more patient and rather observing “hunters mentality” Kendo.
Are you one of these guys, which “wake up” after the won fight and hardly more have a memory, how they won? This reminds me about these guys regulary been rewarded with "Fighting Spirit awards".
Or are you rather someone, which experienced nearly each second consciously. I am more one of this category. (though I remember been arwarded once ago in Prague as well with a Kantosho. hmm... but didn't I act there differently...hmmm...?)
Okay, once again: intuitive, agressive hungry fighter with "killer instinct" or cool observing patient "hunter" focused on pressure (Seme?)?
best regards
just a little disgression. In Germany we use to say the stupiest goal striker is the best one. Because he thinks less, and "sees/feels/sense" the oportunities and execute without thinking/reflection etc...so he scores more. :)
...just an idea!
Me would interest if there aren't analogies between my idea of a "hunter" ( computing, analyzing, cool calculating observing the state of presence during a shiai - but not thinking, planning!), without being "hungry" to open opponent's guard or even being trapped to Mad God's intentions to Zen?
What makes the difference to Mad God's concept?
You got the meaning. In fact, thinking less make you see the whole picture of what is really happening. In kendo they call it "Mushin".
But thinking less doens't mean distraction. This is not the real "no thinking" way to do.
After practicing hard the wazas, assimilating at your kendo, your body just will move for what your eyes are capting...
According to your definition of "hunter" - maybe it's something in common, as of course you will be required to see, analyse and computerize any small movement, or better, "read" opponents intention and movement.
But we can only do it when we are in "Zen mentality" with the opponent.
MG
but anyways... it's a plus to be patient. when one is patient, holds a strong seme, and keep's his eyes open, that's probably the best way to do kendo. if one kenshi was going crazy and swinging frantically, the opponent who is patient and watches for an opening is the one who's gonna win. because if you watch kodansha senseis, they never swing frantically and go crazy. they have a strong seme, and are patient. that's why their students cannot (well for the most part) "beat" them.
i dunno if i helped... this whole hunter killer thing is confusing me
and today? are you "conscious, clear, present, focused" while you create the openings or are you "programmed" in Shiai?
In shiai, I'm mainly just clueless, so I'll stick to ji-geiko for this:)
Ji-geiko varies. Some times, it's exploration, sometimes it's just dogmatic, sometimes I have to use a lot of mental effort, sometimes it just flows.
Even when it's occasionally just frustrating, I still try to just take it in my stride.
For shiai, my aim is to become "conscious, clear, present, focused". I have a big (personal) issue with shiai that I need to overcome..not necesarily because I want to win, but to show to my self that I can (mentally) do it.
Jakob
it's been a while.
Just another idea ( concrning my new thread - why do you loose a shiai? )
Maybe a hunter mentality is too close to logical thinking + planning. thinking during a shiai shouldn't occur, should it?
Thinking means, that your EGO is coming through. Maybe during a fight you shouldn't do anything else than fighting: empty, cool, cold, emotionles and ego-less - killing!
If we see it like that.... it's killer mentality, isn't it?
best
we have the fortune to have here a member from UK NT team. great!
Maybe you could let us know ( if it is not your secret :wink: ) how was your attitude in the Shiai at EKC?
1. Did you expect something in advance?
2. have you been nervouse?
3. Have you felt quite experienced enough for the task?
4 Superior feeling?
5. Have you been on the cool analyzing observing "hunt" ?
5 Did you go in it with feror and fighting spirtit in "killer" mood?
What "system" has proofed to be the best to you in the past?
In what mood have you goten the best "results"?
Since some time Honda Sotaro Sensei is caring about the NT team. You can find his famouse writings at the official BKA site. Feel you a practical result for yourself in shiai from his teachings?
Let us non NT players a little bit participate of your expreiences. We all gladyl will apreciate your comments and help.
best regards
Hi frank,
Actually a few GB team members stalk these pages....but I'll answer from my own point of view.
1 Expect nothing in advance. Even people who you think you know can produce things you would be surprised at. Expecting things that may not happen will only lead to getting hit.
2 I'm nervous most times. I find a slight nervous feeling is helpful actually, but I have to make sure that it doesn't get out of control.
3 No.
4 I think you should not feel like you are superior to someone else unless it is after the result and you know it was a genuine victory. Even then I would prefer to call it satisfied with a good job well done.
5 and, er 5 I used to enter the shiajo and just try to massacre my opponent quickly, but that will only take you so far. I'm not so sure about "hunting" for ippon, but I'm definately trying to be more patient and analytical. Though as Neil pointed out elsewhere, if the situation demands it, you do what it takes, there are others relying on what you do.
Like I said, in the past, it was killer all the way, and it won a few competitions, but like I've mentioned before, its time to change to something a bit more flexible, and which will mean I can continue to progress into old(er) age. My best result recently was in the team shiai at the EKC. Alot more focussed, alot less wasteful actions, and a better control of what I'm doing.
As for Honda sensei, his input is invaluable, and he has been a massive influence (along with my dojo sensei) on my path through kendo.
As for learning from my experiences, better to learn from your own I think!
Gibbo
The hunter arrives before first light and steps from his car. He breaths in and tests the air, the wind on his face the sharpness of the cold, the clouds in the sky are all things his quarry must live with and therefore dictate their actions. Cold enough and the leaves will act as alarm bells, while if it’s damp and warm he can walk in near silence. So his actions to are influenced directly and indirectly by the environment he hunts in. He must use all his knowledge and experience to decide what actions to take, does he stalk at first light, or does he sit and wait? Does he intercept them between destinations, or using a partner force the issue?
Today its going to be cold and sunny. The leaves will be crisp and noisy, and the sun will make his movements easy to spot, so he decides to intercept his quarry between the evening feeding locations and the south slope where they are likely to bed down. He knows he needs to move quickly so as to have made all his noise early and be silent at first light. The big buck has been running the steep edge between the pond and the back pines where the brush is thick. Our hunter grabs his weapon and walks quickly to the location he scouted last week. Possibly the only location were a clean shot can be had and he can be hidden in the darkness of the pines.
He has been sitting now for two hours as still as he can. His legs are cramping up and his back is in pain from the cold rock he is sitting on. He sees some movement in the brush and slowly almost imperceptibly shifts only his upper body. Each time his quarry moves he moves. The wind has already shifted twice and the deer is being cautious. He, and it must be a he since doe are rarely this careful, must smell the hunter but does not know where he is. At the edge of the brush he stops moving for what seems and eternity. The hunter controls his breathing and does not move, the pain is forgotten, and his heart beats fast, while he waits.
The deer steps from the edges of the brush shaking his antlers free of a vine. Its smaller than expected but with a nice even rack. The hunter slowly raises his weapon of choice, a Nikon F body with a 40 to one zoom. Is he less of a hunter for his choice of weapon, I do not think so.
The killer sits in the back of his pickup with as his father drives. Money has been tight this year and a deer will help easy the winter crunch. His boys are growing and seem to eat a horse every week. His scans the tree line with is binoculars as the truck rolls slowly along. At the edge of a far field he sees a doe trot out of the trees stop and look back. He taps the glass and the truck stops. He smiles and waits; sure enough a buck follows her out. He raises his rifle aims with care and fires. Is the fact that a deer is on the receiving end make him a hunter?
Feel em out.. move .. strike.. parry.. multiple hits.. track em (body language).. etc etc. I'm there hunting my prey.
In team match.. i'm a killer.
My job is to go out and kill him twice without allowing a point on me. No glory or a stuffed Men on your wall.. just get the kill.
Anyway, you can't be dark side. Fencing skills + shiny pate = Master (aquatic) Windu.
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