Fear or Idealism?
I'm asking this after reading the thread about "ambiance". I think I subscribe to the theory that says motivation out of fear is effective, but harmful to the spirit, whereas motivation out of idealism is even more effective over the long term and for consistency, and grows the spirit.
Personally, the day I am truly afraid in Kendo is the day I stop practicing. I don't do Kendo to wage war, to win battles, to kill anyone. I know some who consider me to be "wrong" for Kendo, since it comes out of a martial tradition. But for me it's not about that - it's about developing my spirit and character, competition (for competition's sake, not to be a winner), work ethic, and to achieve things I didn't know I was capable of achieving. Fear takes away all those positive feelings, and if I was afraid in Kendo, particularly about anyone there who I thought purposely wanted to harm me, I would quit.
I've gotten bruises on shoulders, throat, ribs, arms, and other places, and those don't bother me. Getting hurt from a partner's kote miss or bad tenouchi just makes me want to try harder for my own technique and skill. But I've never ever felt that someone actually intended to injure me, and thus I have no true fear whatsoever. Even when I know sensei can and sometimes does pound me before I even know he moved. This is because for me, fear comes out of perceived intention, not out of action so much. If I think you want to bully me or hurt me, I become afraid of you, even if I end up the victor when the battle occurs, it doesn't matter - now it's us together building our idealism, improving ourselves, it's about one of us choosing to eliminate the other from the face of the earth (ok, exagerated, but still).
I've read in some posts here, read in other places, and heard kendoka in person say that you should feel when you face an opponent that your life is at stake. That it isn't just a sport. That you should take it seriously and do your best every single time. But does it mean you should want your opponent dead?
Some say yes. Some say you should be afraid, that you should know your opponent wants you dead. That this fear will motivate you, empower you, strengthen you.
I disagree. Maybe my life is at stake, but if I'm scared, I'm going to be tense, and not fluid and smooth and I certainly won't improve. And I hope if I am ever faced with live-or-die situation, that my victory saves my own life, but does not take my opponents. If my opponent died, so be it, but that would make me sad and I would feel like I lacked control.
So I sometimes do think it is to the death, but if so, and I die, I want to die beautifully, and therefore, I am not afraid and don't try to undo what is inevitable - doesn't mean I don't take it very seriously and try very hard :)
What are some of your thoughts on fear vs. idealism as far as motivation, both psychologically and sociologically?
Personally I think one should look at a kendo match like a game of chess: you want to defeat and symbolically kill your opponent, or to show that you could kill him. And if you can't win, you should want to learn why so you will win next time. I am not afraid to loose, I am only afraid of not being able to improve through it.
Which is, when I think about it, more or less what Old Warrior said above.. although I do believe that it is more difficult to win if you are afraid.
I don't know about that. For me, fear causes the adreniline to flow and gets me focused intensely. It's not that I am afraid of failure, but I cannot accept that I am so skilled that I really have a chance. For me, fear of doing less than my best, is a powerful force.
I don't know about that. For me, fear causes the adreniline to flow and gets me focused intensely. It's not that I am afraid of failure, but I cannot accept that I am so skilled that I really have a chance. For me, fear of doing less than my best, is a powerful force.
I agree, but by constant fear, I meant such as soldiers in the front lines of combat feel. Eventually, they can cope with the fear, and the adrenaline doesn't flow quite as heavily, until the fear factor is elevated. When the bullets are flying, you bet the adrenaline is going to flow. How much you are able to go back to a reduced level after the fight is dependent upon your own makeup. But, being a "boot", I don't know anything about combat. :wink:
pete
I was cycling the other night, and I am not a terribly experienced cycler. I have only had "clipless" pedals for a few weeks. These are pedals that have a cleat on the bottom of the shoe that you snap into the pedal, so that your foot is sort of attached to the pedal. The obvious benefit is that you don't have to worry about your foot slipping off.
However, the true purpose is less obvious to the casual rider. As I was riding, I was working on using my hamstrings to "pull" during my pedal strokes to even my stroke power, and apply force in more of the rotation than just the "push" portion, which is (imho) the real benefit of clipless pedals. Kind of like saya-biki in Iaido.
Pondering this, it occurred to me that perhaps idealism and fear are complimentary in this same fashion ? At least in terms of fears that come from a "negative" and ideals that come from a "positive" in the same ways an electric battery has positive and negative poles - they both come together to complete a circuit.
And in cycling, if you only pedal by pushing, you are missing out on a lot of extra power that can be had by pulling. When swinging an iaito, you can nukitsuke without saya-biki, but it isn't as powerful, isn't as crisp, doesn't seem as controlled.
So maybe I should take another look at this whole puzzle !
interesting thread. Here is my opinion:
I think motivation out of idealism or out of a serious interest in kendo is a very good foundation to build upon. I practice Kendo because I am fascinated by the art and because I see a lot of experienced kenshi who are good examples.
Whenever I see the difference between my kendo and the kendo of better kenshi, I feel motivated to practice harder. Also the small improvements I made, show me that I can become better if I work hard for it.
Some words about fear:
Yes, I think I have already experienced fear in kendo (Although I might not have been in serious situations like other kenshi...). I had a jigeiko with a sensei and the pressure was so much, it scared me. I felt extremely uncomfortable. Hard to describe but I guess most people here know what I mean. Another situation was my first tournament: I was extremely insecure and when my name was called, I was scared. Scared to look like an idiot, scared to make a stupid mistake, scared to make my other sempai from my club look silly.
But afterwards I was very happy that I somehow managed to get through this situations and I think, maybe they helped me somehow to improve my kendo. Not in a dramatic way but more subtle...maybe I feel more confident now. And at least I am not scared anymore when I think about tournaments, I think they are fun. ;-)
In the end, for me this is what kendo is about: To know ones weaknesses and to overcome them through practice. (No, I did not make this up on my own. I got this from a documentation of a 8th Dan grading on National Geographic. ;-) )
regards
meow
P.S. Please excuse my english....itīs late and I should already be sleeping...:)
But I have to say, it sounds odd but I do miss being scared in Kendo. For months I was TERRIFIED on a visceral, irrational level purely because there was so much noise, wild movement around me, and weird scarey looking people with masks on. It got the adrenalin flowing very nicely, I totally forgot any bad points of the day and was a wonderful change to my normal state of mind :wink: It's only recently I'm not scared any more and can stand in the line waiting my turn feeling totally at ease, even if seniors are chucking themselves around in jigeiko all around me. I even enjoy seeing them now!
It's good in a way because now I have enough relaxation to look to my footwork and posture, and bad in a way because I can now daydream or switch off. Luckily our Sensei is good at spotting that and tells us off, so my motivation of self-development wins the day for me.
Zanshin is a very powerful thing. How can you teach it to children?
Though I've continued for different reasons, to answer this question is one reason I started kendo.
I've actually been complimented on my KIAI a few times.
If you happen to be working for someone who instills fear in you in order to get you to work, you will do the work, but you won't do it as well or as willingly as you would if you were idealistically motivated. "If you don't get this job done by 1:00 this afternoon, you're fired!" (It's now 12:45, and he just handed the assignment to you.) You'll work hard, but eventually that will get old, either his threats or your reactions to them. However, if you felt that you were bettering the company, yourself, and the people you work with, you would work much harder and much more enthusiastically.
Meow, nothing wrong with your English.
Fear can often inspire others to work harder, create competition and encourage perseverance. It may seem bad from afar but in reality it often leads to good.
Pretty deep.
Something i'm afraid of, it probably sounds really stupid, but i am afraid of being the worst student in the dojo. Not that i train hard to be the best in the dojo, rather i train to be the best student i can be and let my position in the dojo follow suit...
So yes, when I wrote this, I was in terms of "fear of god" / "dark side" versus "love of something" / "faith in an ideal". You may also say I'm thinking in the context of the Riddle of Steel from the film Conan, i.e. "See that beautiful girl, there? Come to me my child. (girl smiles at Thulsa, bows, falls off a cliff at his beckoning, to her death) THAT is power, boy ! What is steel, but the hand that wields it? Steel is not strong, boy, flesh is strong," (or something like that that, I can't quite remember) Thulsa Doom says to Conan (who was taught by his own father that the only thing he could trust was Steel, not people).
But seeing some of the comments made by others has made me realize I have chosen specific modes of these more complex ideas and had tunnel vision perhaps.
For example, I said that I'm not ever afraid in the dojo.
However, I have felt a serious seme. I have felt like I wanted not let down my sensei, senpai, kohai, or dojo many a moment. I've been nervous, dissapointed in myself, and have very often felt unworthy (though not because anyone told me I sucked, but because I judged myself in that way). There is an aspect of the negative side of emotion there, and as a person who believes all emotions take their roots in either fear or love, those emotions I do believe come from the more abstract "greater" fear. And there is a lot to be said for this. Perhaps fear and idealism are like pearlite and martensite in a katana - you need both, but in the right spot. Put one in the wrong spot and you have a not-so-good katana.
So to play out that analogy, I think there is a difference between recognizing the deeper "fears" we have about failing, not living up to our sensei's teachings, harming someone else, etc. etc., versus actually being afraid because you know someone else is earnestly trying to harm you, cause you pain, whatever. Fearing someone actually being malicious towards you is like being through-hardened to 60 rockwells - yea, the edge is sharp as all get out, but the katana is just brittle, waiting to crack or chip or even break.
Getting smacked in the top of the men from behind because I didn't run through quick enough after a shomen is something I take to be a form of very real encouragement from my sensei, but that's because I believe that he really is only doing it to make me become a better kendoka. It's funny how much compassion I feel from my teachers and fellow kendoka, and how even though we all work hard and expect that from each other, I still get the sense that everyone truly cares about how my kendo is and wants to help me improve it.
Take that same action - getting smacked in the top of the men by my sensei - and change the underlying belief. Now, instead of feeling that little adrenaline rush, but having it be a lifting, exciting feeling to know I am being pushed to become better, let's pretend I feel like my sensei is trying to break me, to show me how worthless I am, to humiliate me in front of everyone else, to . . . (insert malicious intent here). This is the kind of fear I just don't have. But if I believed my sensei wanted to punish/hurt/bruise/beat me because I wasn't "good enough" it would be that exact kind of change in underlying belief.
You can apply the same kind of idea to pets - is it better to beat the living slop out of your dog because he's a puppy and pooped in the house, or is it better to praise the animal for pooping outside? Is it better to put a dog in a situation where they are going to poop, and then beat them when they do so they fear pooping anywhere near that area, or is it better to constantly create opportunities for the animal to poop where you want them to (outside) and reward them for doing that with food/attention/love ?
I mean, yes, it's very effective to just beat your dog till they stop doing whatever it is you don't want to do, but the dog will always always fear you deep down, and obey out of fear of retribution. I've never seen a dog do a truly amazing trick who was trained out of fear. And yet, those dogs (and other animals) that do the most crazy wild stuff are the ones who love their owners, who live to please their owners, and who their owners motivate out of praise rather than fear.
I'm not saying praise should be the way of things in the dojo - I tend to think the "I'm ok you're ok" kind of mentality is lacking in aspiration for true quality - but my point is that there is a negative aspect to a fear of retribution, versus the lack of fear of retribution.
Now, at practice last night, we had the unexpected pleasure of having the head instructor for our school arrive early (he's doing a seminar for us today and tommorrow!!). This man is wonderful, and I am not afraid of any retribution from him. He is very kind to the beginners and I have always felt like he loves Kendo and just wants people to love it too.
That said, just standing near him in the dojo I was overwhelmed by his spirit. Watching his kamae - just his kamae - was intimidating, scary. This wasn't a fear of retribution, and it wasn't even exactly a conscious "fear" per se, but I remember last time I sonkyo with him (month or two prior, last time he was in town), I almost fell over. And I sonkyo all the time in practice and never have that happen. But it was like the man was just pure seme, nonstop, all the time, and my natural body movement became backing away. Like his kissaki was in my face in first kata or something, just pushing me back.
I think the humility of seeing this is powerful. I think respecting this is liberating. I think being "scared" as in maybe being shocked, falling backwards, whatever, is helpful. But I guess I had something else in mind thinking of the word "fear" in this case.
And as I said, reading everyone's comments has really helped me to learn that I have a very narrow idea when I used the term "fear" which really should be "fear of malicious retribution" I guess, but who knows, I'm sure a person could find a flaw even in that definition.
Well, I certainly will eagerly read any further comments, but thanks so much to everyone for your thoughts so far - very helpful and stimulating to my learning mind ! !
I agree, but by constant fear, I meant such as soldiers in the front lines of combat feel. Eventually, they can cope with the fear, and the adrenaline doesn't flow quite as heavily, until the fear factor is elevated. When the bullets are flying, you bet the adrenaline is going to flow. How much you are able to go back to a reduced level after the fight is dependent upon your own makeup. But, being a "boot", I don't know anything about combat. :wink:
Although I did my time in the army, I can't speak to actual combat. But I've been a trial lawyer for over 30 years, and a fencer for over 20 years. Last night a 17 year old shodan went for do, missed, and with a full swing hit me above the armor. The shock of the hit (and the pain) put me in a mode that made me fence as if my life depended on it. I was prepared to die to achieve victory. My opponent was 40 years younger and came after me over and over. In tsubazeri he pushed and used every ounce of strength he had. I do nito and in a violent push I moved his hands to my right and hit kote with a perfect cut. At the end of the bout, I was spent and needed a rest. What motivated me - was pure fear and a refusal to quit to an attacking force that had done kendo for twice as long and me and who's stamina I could never match. But my opponent was a lovely young man who has never had need of the grit or determination I have developed in life. He was playing a sport, I was fighting for my life.
I find there is an interplay between the two things.
In kendo, at least, it is the sense of fear, weakness, etc, that I work to overcome. So, I try not to shy away from them -- I try to attack them directly. I do not always do a good job, but that is the nature of those kinds of emotions. It is my sense of idealism that drives me to try to overcome them, but I think I need both to work hard.
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