Are Westeners able to understand the Art of Kendo
today I woke up with a provocant consideration, which I would like to submit to this forum.
How much sense does it makes, that Westerners learn an eastern art such as Kendo? I don't speak about the training fun, physical and social aspects, or mental strenght we get from Kendo. Are we ever experienced the real depth of this martial art? Do we have to become "Japanese" for that, or is a hybrid western Kendo-way enough for us?
Do we practice Kendo only to become primarily physically stronger, to be mentally steeled and try to get other humans better in the grasp for the daily management? Or forms Kendo really the character? Sometimes I have large doubts, so with me.
In Kendo forums some time ago the „Shogo “ topic arose (honoray titles from Renshi to Hanshi). There were easy doubts announced about „the legal standard" of national „Hanshi “titles. Disbelievingness expressed over the Hanshi title of an US american seventh Dan. Further, complaints become likewise loud about the "unjapanese" Kendo-style of european Nana Dan or the implication that a franco-japanese Sensei possibly only reached his Hachi Dan, because the IKF needed also for Europe a respected one ... and much more beside that…
I am somehow sad over this. But however, I have to admit that this is a "normal" democratic western discussion, which we as free openminded people may naturally have to accept. No doubt.
But what says that to us in a wider sense?
Though we Kenshi express our intentions to do Kendo as an art. Though some of us are Japan Freaks with a lot of knowledge, admiring Zen and buddhistic philosophy, they nevertheless act in their daily life in western style.
I feel, that we somehow do Kendo likewise a "role-game":
Inside Dojo - Formality, Reiho, no discussions, 100%, listening the Sensei etc...
Outsie Dojo - Doubting, insubordination, disbelievingness ... business as usual!
I do not exclude myself from it.
Give me hope! Let me hear your ideas.
Best regards
I'm interested in what you mean by this... maybe the stuff of another thread.
I certainly feel that good kendo requires "no-mind" in the zen sense. While, there's not an explicit meditative teaching of zen thought, I'd think kendo is one of the more conducive paths to suppressing internal dialogue.
Care to wax philosophical?
hmmm, the answer is "NO, westeners wont be able to understand the art of kendo. .. ...if they merely seek to achieve the more suerpficial goals of ken do". But if is is in that or any particular individual to want to pursue the "doctrine" of kendo, they will be able to understand that "art" or "ken do". I don't suppose it's a natural thing for the Japanese people to be born and then "bam" they understand kendo. I've met Japanese people who hate kendo. hahahaha, I know I was in shock when I heard that too. I think it really depends on how you see "kendo" and your goals.
You see it all the time, in everything, here. Chopstick usage is usually the first introduction. "You can use chopsticks?! How?!" So, no matter what "the Japanese" do, any degree of racial non-Japaneseness is a greater separator than almost any wacky thing a "pure Japanese" person does.
It's not racism in the American sense-- this thing to which I refer. That's there, too, but it's a bit different. This is a generally-accepted, internalized idea that there are the Japanese and there is everyone else. Kendo is a Japanese thing. If you're Japanese, it's your birthright. If you're not Japanese, you're borrowing it-- learning about their thing. That's cute, and all, but it'll never make you Japanese.
Don't get me wrong. I love the place. Just making an observation.
Also, kendo has nothing to do with Zen, don't confuse the two.
And there you have it folks, a Buddhist agrees with our theories!
so maybe that means its not the Kendo that teaches the ways of Zen, more rather the person chooses to explore the prospect of enlightenment.
I would say they that in the modern world, most people are scrutinized for trying to dive into these types of things. Meditation itself is now a skill people PAY to LEARN, from reading a few articles on the subjects of Meditation and Zen, it is an entirely personal learning adventure that can be aided by the understanding of Budo and the like.
Thats all i can think of,
Probably not correct, but it seems self-explanatory.
N e Ways, Peace :D
I am not entirely sure how many Americans really understand baseball, nevermind Japanese...
Knowing the rules is not the same thing as understanding the game. Rules structure behavior. Understanding speaks to the purpose of the game. Structure and Purpose may be related, but they are not the same.
So, I think it is a very subtle and interesting point, given the special place baseball has in the American psyche. But, can Japanese understand baseball?
We can help each other attain enlightenment quicker. We can share views that others may not even consider.
As for our interaction wiht ohters in the negative sense (such as killing), everything happens to us for a reason... related to karma! We attract the kind of things that happens to us, and the kind of people that are with us. So perhaps the things that happen to us are results of actions we have taken either in this life or in a previous one. Now, what we do now will determine what kind of karma we accumulate in the future.
Well there is no logical argument against karma :D. But I'm afraid it is just a creation of the mind. If you believe in it, it will be true for you because like most religions the logic of it is undeniable, but at the same time the logic behind negating that there is such a thing is undeniable as well.
I.e. you say things happen to people because of things that happened in the past or even in past lifetimes. I can not argue with that, I have no knowledge of my past lifes and what I did in them, so I can't say wheter the things that are happening to me are coincidence or consequence.
But at the same time you càn not know what happened in your past lifetime except by looking at the consequences it has on your present life.
Now herein lies a problem, you assume the things that are happening to you are not by chance but by cause of something you can not know about, but because you say they are consequences of something, you say there must be something that causes this, something like karma.
It' like a circle you assume that everything happens for a reason, and at the same time you assume that reasons have to to explain what is happening.
+ Karma in my eyes the more pop-culture version of saying god created the oreder in the universe,with the lord in his pallace and the pauper by his gates. And too try to change it is blasphemy. Because karma basicly says: "If you are born in africa without a chance in the world, it's your own fault."
I believe in chaos, conflict and coincidence, out of that I get my compassion for those who did not have the big house, did not ride the expensive car or even those who try to flee the poverty in their own coutry, simply because if you can't be blamed for being born in the wrong place or having misfortune in your life.
As for the first sentence I have to dissagree again, thinking you can achieve enlightement all by yourself is too optimistic. It is typical for people that have gotten a lot of luck in their life to forget how lucky they where. How could someone who has been in war at the age of five reach enlightenment, maybe some wont be as traumatised as others, but to say that everyone of them is able to reach enlightenment after their expieriences is just folly. Besides when do you suggest they will do that?
Or maybe even stronger example is Genie (I could have spelled it wrong). She was locked up by their parents because they thought she was a bit retarted (Only thought, the parents thought this because she walked uneasy, whic appeared to be something physical). She didn't have any human contact till she reached puberty exept for her parent bringing her food. She was discovered afterwards but she had no idea of human behaviour, no idea of language and even after years of therapy she was unfit to go into society and it seemed that because of the lack of normal human contact in het years of growing up she could never be able to learn to be a human being. So you see even if this seems a bit extreme or over the top example of things, the impact that other people have can touch us even further than just the economic, educational or social shpere but also in our being as a sentient lifeform.
Or even more generally, "How much sense does it make that
Understanding an art, sport, or activity whether from one's own culture or a different one strikes me as much more a question of individual desire, devotion and ability than anything else.
I understand your point and agree with it, but I think the question is actually backwards from what it seems. I feel that the question of if a Westerner can understand kendo is more a question about kendo than about Westerners. That is, I do not really see the question as one about the ability for a person (of a given culture) to learn. I see it as asking if understanding kendo places certain kinds of demands on people, such as that of belonging to some particular culture (by that, I really mean "understanding" and not "attributed to").
I have not studied ballet, so I cannot comment about that. However, when I fenced, although we used French terms but there was no connection to any kind of culture. For example, there was a fencing salute we did, but it was not identified as French or Spanish or any particular culture. By comparison, in kendo we say that rei is the most important thing, and the etiquette that we follow is specifically Japanese, and I doubt anyone would say you were doing it wrong if you bowed to your opponent after a bout instead of shaking their hand.
Let us look at it differently. If you play baseball, do you have to have American values in order to do well? In kendo, it may well be the case that you could do well in shiai without embracing Japanese values. But, can you reach 6, 7, 8 dan without embracing Japanese values? We are told that, particularly at higher ranks, we are graded on our "dignity" and "bearing" as soon as soon as we enter the dojo; even before we get dressed and step onto the floor. So we are not graded simply on our technique, but our mannerisms. And those mannerisms are not Western. Indeed, the very idea that the way you walk into the dojo should matter for your rank in kendo is bizarre, from a Western context. Does anyone think it should matter that how a baseball player is dressed or walks into the club room does, or should, have anything at all to do with their playing ability?
Ultimately the question is "what is kendo." This comes up with people who are asking if they can self-train. You do not need sensei to learn how to swing a stick, and you do not need to know Japanese culture to learn how to swing a stick. Same is true anything mechanical like hitting men. But being able to smack someone on the head with a stick is not kendo. Pretend for a moment that someone has magically learned all of the physical techniques of kendo but none of the reiho. Are they doing kendo? Do they understand kendo? I think most people will say no. It is the connection to Japanese culture that makes it kendo. In other words, kendo is not simply an "art, sport, or activity," and that is why understanding of the culture is important.
The next question is if it makes sense for culture X to understand culture Y. You said "nationality," but, "Western" is not a nationality and it almost certainly is meant to apply to some cultural commonality between Western Europe, North America, Australia, etc. That is a difficult question, but in my opinion, it is not really possible. We see and interpret things through an ideological filter that comes from our own culture, so anything you see from someone else's culture starts out misunderstood. I could write extensively on that opinion, but this post is long enough already...... So I will simply say for now that I feel that the only way to understand a culture is to "belong" to it at some level.
b
uhh...caught...
your final speech for us in all honors. You were too good, it scares me! :wink:
I changed your statement over the Japanese simply a bit and already get a final speech against some of us. The bad to it is, it is a quite conceivablly scenario...Isn't it? I see therein something from me as well… why the heck do you think guys like us started threads like this implicating questions as "why do I kendo?" ... :rolleyes:
please don't scare me again, think about my old heart... :wink:
best regards
Hm since I have been here it seems most Japanese people do kendo because almost every one here has some kind of hobby and I think kendo really does build charicter. Most really good sensei/hachidan etc are almost always in high positions, eg school teachers and most other Japanese arts, no alot of what the Japanese do seems to be tought in the same way as kendo, watching children training in football and backet ball on tv seems just like kendo with drills etc.
Thats one thing I think some people in other countries don't quite understand.
Another thing is the language thing. How many good kendo books are there in English? Every one seems to like Ozawa and the book, looking at a far mountain but to me these books aren't so good.
In England too it is hard to find any hachidan sensei or even nana dan sensei in a dojyo.
Its sad but I really don't think you can learn kendo to get above go dan out side of Japan..
How much sense does it makes, that Westerners learn an eastern art such as Kendo?
Am I the only one who sees the question as roughly equivalent to asking: "How much sense does it make that Japanese learn a western art such as ballet?"
Or even more generally, "How much sense does it make that
Understanding an art, sport, or activity whether from one's own culture or a different one strikes me as much more a question of individual desire, devotion and ability than anything else.
And how many? As well as is it registered?
It would seem a way of claiming more power to me, like Jesus belongs to the Catholics by right and all that jazz.
It is just how can you believe something that no one can interpret?
Am I the only one who sees the question as roughly equivalent to asking: "How much sense does it make that Japanese learn a western art such as ballet?"
Or even more generally, "How much sense does it make that
Understanding an art, sport, or activity whether from one's own culture or a different one strikes me as much more a question of individual desire, devotion and ability than anything else.
I agree, the value is in the effort, the virtue is in the desire and devotion.
Wait until you get back "home" (wherever that is) and you'll find some of these issues come into sharp focus, especially the one about being self-sufficient (no longer so many sensei to hiki-tate your kendo higher and higher).
I think sometimes we demur to the higher authority of our sensei and sempai when they say things like "foreigners can't understand .... about Japan". Or when a Japanese person asks, "do you really understand about budo/yamato damshii/Zen/etc?" we are placed in a position where etiquette demands that we admit to complete ignorance. This is a good thing because really we never as much as we could. But also it can make some experienced kendoka unnecessarily play down their own attainment.
One reason why we do this is because it keeps our goals slightly out of reach, unassailable, pure. If such things are easily understood, then they lose there value: this kind of thinking. OTOH they are either knowable or they are not. Constantly saying that we are not good enough ever to know
can sometimes be "throwing the baby out with the bathwater".
Of course some people say they know nothing but you KNOW that they are quite clear about their own knowledge, and in fact they manifest it constantly. In this case they are protecting their knowledge from becoming verbalised, from being too easily misunderstood via a linguistic interpretation that they know is necessarily incomplete. They also want to test you by knocking you back. If your interest is easily discouraged, then you're probably not ready to do the real work of finding out. Interestingly though, if they are REALLY good, they will NEVER tell you that they know. They might however, smile.
This is why Zen monasteries practice "tangaryo": candidates for entry into the monastery must sit in zazen, in the full lotus position, for a minimum of 8 hours everyday for an entire week before they will be allowed in. And everyday one of the head monks comes out and tells them basically to f!ck off. Sometimes they even beat them or throw things at them (like the contents of a chamber pot). Only if you can withstand this will they even let you in to start training.
I probably shouldn't have mentioned Zen... >.<
b
Good thing that there's plenty of people that have proved you wrong :)
Jakob
Not necessarily true. We can reach enlightenment on our own (Siddhartha Gautama aka: "The Buddha") did it.
We can help each other attain enlightenment quicker. We can share views that others may not even consider.
As for our interaction wiht ohters in the negative sense (such as killing), everything happens to us for a reason... related to karma! We attract the kind of things that happens to us, and the kind of people that are with us. So perhaps the things that happen to us are results of actions we have taken either in this life or in a previous one. Now, what we do now will determine what kind of karma we accumulate in the future.
What inner peace is, to my understanding, is the ability to not only handle life's worries and obstacles, but have the wisdom to seek out the best solution and also to be able to use it to become stronger. Not quite accepting thigns for the way they are because that's more of a passive thing. To be truly happy, one must take action. But action must be accompanied by wisdom, or else the action will cause more strife and grief.
Based on the writings of philosophers that I've read over the ages, it seems that they do tend to have a deeper understanding of the way life works. You have to really think about it though. Sure, they are easy concepts in theory, but they are not nearly so easy to implement.
For instance, a buddhist philosophy that my school teaches is the concept of Human Revolution. Human revolution means that a single individual is able to change the destiny of a nation, and further the destiny of all mankind. But this human revolution doesn't take place outside of himself/herself. This human revolution is a change from within -- identifying their life patterns (karma) that may cause their own suffering as well as the suffering of others, and correcting it.
Sounds easy? It is... except for the minor thing of the human ego. ;) The greatest enemy to a person's enlightenment is ego. Even doubt stems from ego! When the universe is telling you that you have unlimited potential, and yet you say that you have limitations and can't do this and that... It's like my favorite demotivator poster "In the battle between you and the world, bet on the world."
Life has unlimited potentials. Everyone can do something great -- whatever they set their minds and heart to.
Anyway, my $0.02 for the day. :)
Thank you, I think that is a very interesting and fascinating thing.
I am curious, though, what do people in Japan who play baseball think baseball is about? What is its meaning to them? Why do they play it instead of something else? In short, what is their understanding of baseball?
uhh.. caught again... but it is a reassuring feeling not being the only one in the "club" :wink:
best regards
men ari!
b
They say kendo begins and ends with "rei." In the context of the dojo, that has a specific expression: formality, the particulars of etiquette (reiho), no discussions, etc. But, at the same time, we know that some particulars change from dojo to dojo. Does the tenogui go on top of the men or inside. Some dojo have more discussions than other. When we visit other dojo, we understand that the proper expression of rei is to do as this sensei dictates, and not how we might do it in our own dojo.
So, the fundamental principle that we learn from kendo is expressed differently in different contexts.
This is how it is when we go into out regular western lives. We can still live with kendo principles, like rei, and yet behave in a totally different way than in the dojo. There is no fundamental conflict between being quiet in the dojo and outside. So, I think your "role-playing" concern is a good observation but not a problem, really.
A deeper question is if a westerner can understand "rei." I think the answer is yes and no. Of course it is possible given enough effort. Assuming it is not something that is genetic and innate, it is learned. So, obviously, if a Westerner spends enough time to become deconditioned from their own cultural perspective, they can learn it.
But, presumably, the question is if a Westerner who practices maybe two or three times a week in a Western dojo and does not speak Japanese and does not interact with Japanese people outside of the dojo can understand something like rei and its relationship to kendo. I think that such a person can understand what rei means in their culture, but will not have an understanding of what a Japanese person means when they say it. But that is just a matter of culture and language, and nothing having to do with kendo. For example, I am familiar with the word "gestalt" because of my exposure to psychology, and the word/phrase "da sein" from my study of philosophy. But these words undoubtedly have a far richer meaning to someone who studies these things and is familiar with German.
Even though I am using a word as an example, I think the same thing is true for all aspects of kendo. For example, the instruction to always "go straight" has a very different meaning for someone who comes from a culture that is very indirect in its dealings with people than for someone whose culture is very direct in its dealings with people. It is, therefore, not easy to see what the lessons "really mean."
Anyway, my $0.02 for the day. :)
The time we are given is like a grain of sand in the desert to think our actions could be something more is like the raindrop thinking it is the flood.
You say that life sets has unlimited potentials, but what about the kids that grow up in coutries where they have to be boy or girl soldiers, what about kids who have to work 16 hours a day from the age of 5. Their life was determined even before it was born, they were never given a chance to grow to their potential. Even in some so called free coutries, if your parents have lots of money you can get good education, meet the right people whereas if your parents are poor you'll have to fight everyday to succeed or maybe even to hold your head above water. Maybe my biggest problem with inner peace is that it is often a synonym for averting your eyes and covering your ears.
I believe that the things you learn in life determing what you are, our mind is molded by the people that surround us, by our enviroment, we watch we learn and we practice the values and habits that surround us.
Can people that grew up in the west become japanese, no they can not, not entierly. But they can adapt their practices and even their values, if they are to live in an enviroment where those practices and values are commonplace. But I think their will always be a residu of what they were brought up in, which might explain that if they were to be dropped in an enviroment which is too antagonistic with their native values they might rebell.
Now Kendo is something japanese but it is also something that is learned so through practice we can try to learn little by little what we want to learn.
As for why we want to practice something like kendo, well maybe because it is hard to understand. People are often fascinated by things they do not know, it's called curiousity and sure it has killed a few cats in the past, but it also makes humans humans. + It's kinda fun
i dont even know wtf Zen is, let alone its purpose in the modern world. It would seem that way with any one else to, meaning to me that it can't matter whether its revalvent to kendo or not.
a few of my teachers, 5th dans, all say the have asked japanese senseis about Zen, and they all say they will tell them when they are all more experienced, so unless they are lying "which is highly unlikely" what are they on about?
I will ask them tonight, and give their response tommorow. I couldn't care less what the outcome is, i still respect them. if they have been graded to such a level in japan, they must show skill and promise.
Peace (and dont forget it) :D
Zen cannot be expressed in words. So I don't see what asking him what Zen is will do. Zen is a way of life, so to speak, but so much more.
Peace.
Hai, but even the smallest raindrop can make a difference. Look at what a drop of water can do on a still pond. The ripple can go out a ways.
We're all connected. That is why it is such a terrible thing to kill someone, because with that same effort we can exert positive influence and help someone reach their potential.
Maybe my biggest problem with inner peace is that it is often a synonym for averting your eyes and covering your ears.
How each one of us enters this world is of our own choosing. We all come into this world with something to learn. Karma, according to pop culture, is a form of tally mark in your life based on actions you take... or is it! Not so! It's more like a lesson plan.. curriculum. Think of our karma as a university degree. We all have certain classes we have to take in life, and if we choose to not learn anyhting, we'll fail at the class and retake. SImiliarly, if we choose not to learn from our karma and become better people, we're bound to repeat the same mistakes and suffer. :)
But life isn't about suffering. We're born in this life to be happy.
Aversion of eyes and ignorance to the world is ignorance to the truth of ones life. Facing the wind and taking life head on is the way to go, and those whom opt to do so can build an incredible strength -- inner strength, inner peace -- that no person, action, nor circumstance can take away.
It is the single person that proves most powerful. :) Great human rights leaders of our age have stood alone against the injustices of their age and as a result changed the lives of people around them. Gandhi didn't enter thsi world with power, fame. He followed his heart and used wisdom in his actions. He is but one of many examples. :)
You are right. Our time in this earth is but a speck of dust. However, how that time is used results in dramatic difference. You can either sit idly by and let life pass you... or you can take it by the reigns and guide it in the direction you wish to go.
The choice, as it always has been and always shall be, is up to you. :)
To me, I feel if you haven't grown up or lived for a long time in a place that has customs or regular things westerners may not understand and yet you still gain a true grasp on it, it's a lot deeper than those who merely inherit it. To come from something totally different and then learn the Way of something truly passionate is quite the accomplishment. Everyone owes it to themselves to gain some sort of inner peace regardless of where they seek it.
The next question is if it makes sense for culture X to understand culture Y. You said "nationality," but, "Western" is not a nationality and it almost certainly is meant to apply to some cultural commonality between Western Europe, North America, Australia, etc. That is a difficult question, but in my opinion, it is not really possible. We see and interpret things through an ideological filter that comes from our own culture, so anything you see from someone else's culture starts out misunderstood. I could write extensively on that opinion, but this post is long enough already...... So I will simply say for now that I feel that the only way to understand a culture is to "belong" to it at some level.
I remember writing something quite similar in a thread where shieldwolf proposed empirical tests to see if self training has any merits, but I like the way you've summed it up here.
With regards to your second point, I tend to agree. However, I wonder if our definitions of what it means to "belong" to a culture, and thereby understand it, are the same. As I see it, a culture is defined by the network of people who inhabit it, and the binding force that holds these networks together is "comunication" (otherwise they wouldn't be linked and it wouldn't be a network). I accept that we can't just say communication=language, as there are other, subtler forms of communication, but for the purposes of this discussion I think you could use worse approximations. I definitely feel that a person's ability to participate in another culture is largely defined by their ability to manipulate the language of that culture. It would be difficult to use my own experiences to try and illustrate the genral case as I can only see one half of the picture, but in the case of foreigners that I've known in england, the ones who integrate most completely and are gladly accepted by the host country (in this case england) are invariably those with superior english skills.
Continuing (sort of) on the theme, many (including myself) have already made the point in this thread that not many Japanese understand kendo. To place that in the context of what I've just been typing, I do feel that it's valid to suggest that kendo is some kind of subculture within Japanese society. For this to be the case, there would have to be some kind of difficulty with communication with Japanese society at large, according to what I wrote above. Obviously, they speak the same language as other people, but this is where other, subtler forms of communication come in. For a short period I was a member of a university taiikukai (hardcore, basically) kendo club, and I can remember any number of times when I found the behaviour of these guys in social situations quite hilarious. One time I took a couple of guys to a place I liked to go drinking. After a couple of beers they announced that they were going after a couple of girls, so I observed from across the room. It was a disaster from the start. They introduced themselves as if they were talking to some hachidan they'd just met, and their conversation was painfully stiff and formal. Another time we all went to hanami (basically getting drunk, using the blooming of cherry blossoms as an excuse). After a while, some people decided that they'd like to get to know another group that was near to us. I don't think you'll be surprised to hear that the other group couldn't stop giggling when our guys introduced themselves, sounding for all the world like some bushi announcing his family line to an opponent in a battle.
I just wanted to provide some concrete examples of why I think that kendo is something that, while obviously Japanese, is not at all mainstream. I think it's hard to see this in some Japanese kendoka abroad, as it seems quite common for these people to have quit at the end of high school, giving them a chance to 'realign' themselves at university. It's the ones that did kendo all the way through, and, being so incredibly busy with practice, didn't get much of a chance to participate in the great social balancer that is the education system and the relationships you form within it that you have to watch out for!
Well, that was a long post that didn't really go anywhere much...
IMHO it's just a different level of understanding KENDO, being more skillful in KENDO - which has little to do with being Japanese or not. I bet you'd say my AJKC Godan has better kendo than the Yondan you've seen, but then it doesn't mean my Godan is "more Japanese" than your one, nor that your Yondan has a worse character than the Godan, etc.
As for the character-building part of kendo... I don't think anyone should interpret this literately. Quoting Kingofmyrrh, the Concept of Kendo simply means "train hard and be a good boy", which is just a univeral approach to any tough life people go through every day... Read a Zen or Confucius book or two will probably help better "molding your mind" than receiving brain damage from bamboo sticks.. :rolleyes:
I was about to compliment you on a concise post that pretty much hits the mark, and then I saw who you quoted... an excellent post indeed!
The choice, as it always has been and always shall be, is up to you. :)
Link those two sentences and you'll see that the latter is false, we can kill someone and his her potential, we can help someone and get him reach his potential, we can deny a helping hand to someone and he wont reach his potential. So the choice is not always yours, the choice lies within you and all that play a role in your life.
It's an interesting question, and Axeman's story about the chopsticks, whoah, have I heard that 1,000,000 times or what! Many Japanese think it's weird for gaijin to love kendo. They just ask "why?" Hands up who here's been called "kenkichi" (a kendo pervert) by a Japanese person? I still can't work out if it's a compliment or an insult. Or both at the same time.
You know what? I think deep down they're envious. They realise at some level what it must take to do kendo when there's almost no kudos and certainly no money or career options in doing kendo outside Japan. In Japan kendo can be a conveyer belt that carries you through life: mum and dad force you to start in Primary school, you get good so you keep going, into JH and SH school. Then your perseverance pays off and you get a place in one of the kendo unis. Poor sucker you'll be the only uni student in Japan who has to work for their uni degree but who cares, you might get to practice kendo for life and get paid to do it. Besides, by now it's the thing your best at (maybe the only thing you're good at) so you can't stop now. You're probably 40+ by the time you first ask yourself, "why do I kendo?" Do you see? The decisions have been made for you all along.
Outside Japan it's different. There's no-one forcing you to go to training. In fact there's probably more and more reasons why you should stop going so much. You can't talk with most of your friends or family about it coz they just think you're kendo thing is a bit strange. So you frequent boards like this one in cyberspace. But you know that you keep going because you love it and because you've got a fire in your belly. All the motivation is coming from inside. This is what they're jealous of. How self-sufficient us gaijin kendoka are. To love kendo so much we MUST understand it. That freaks them out!
I thought that every now and then when some hachi-dan came to train with us he was just being amaeru (nice) by saying "You all have much better budo spirit than most Japanese kendoka." But now I think I he was being straight out honest.
We do.
b
Do tell! What is Prussian kendo? Is it like Mensur? ;) I know you are being facetious (as I am!) but still it's an interesting statement.
b
b
I'm sure most have come into contact with people like this. My general attitude towards these people is "you don't understand england" (or wherever you might be). I don't deny that there are some differences, but I think this attitude comes from misconceptions about foreign countries. A common cause seems to be a lack of language ability/ability to adjust behavioural patterns. For example, what a Japanese person might perceive as overly direct conduct is not necesarily taken as such by another english person. I guess the reverse example is when people from outside Japan think Japanese people are somewhat sycophantic and eager to please. It's just another misinterpretation of behaviour. I don't really believe that the actual content of human interaction differs a huge amount between Japan and the UK, just the methods we use to express this interaction. But a lot of people are unable to break through this barrier, which leads to these ideas that there are gaping chasms between human beings in one country and another. I can only really talk about Japan and the UK since they're the only countries I've spent significant time in (at least since I started going to school), but the friendships that I've shared with some people have led me to reject entirely the whole " can't understand japan" and conversely "can't understand UK" way of thinking. I think it's a telling fact that those people I've met who are the firmest believers in this kind of exclusionism are also the people with the weakest foreign language skills (and therefore with the least ability to make a thorough assessment of their opposite number).
Inner peace is hightly overrated, inner turmoil brings question, questions lead to problems problems bring solutions and solutions bring answers. Peace means incrementalism, selfindulgence and being happy with the way things are, that's something I could never do, since the world is not perfect and while I still have more questions then answers I won't know any peace in my mind. Think about it, a lot of the great filosofers made incredibly complicated constructions about the simplest questions and I dare bet that even they realized it was merely a good attempt. One of the last great western filosofers even questioned if language or even thought was fit for discussion about the metaphysical. Inner peace means accepting things the way they are, as things are now I can never accept them for being more thant the present reality.
It could offcourse be that because of this I'm getting slowly mad
How many people who do kendo in Japan really care less about the 'character forming' side of things? I think you'll find that it's a very small minority. The vast, vast majority of Japanese kendo participants are those enrolled in education, from nursery all the way through to university. I've spoken with many uni students, quite a few high school students, only a very few junior high students, and quite a few elementary school students. I can assure you that almost nobody does kendo to 'build character'. The primary reason is to win in shiai, with some also enjoying training (by and large these people aren't at tough schools, where it's difficult to describe practice as 'fun').
So basically, you need to ask the question, 'Are most Japanese doing "character building" kendo?' before you consider the rest of the world. As far as I'm concerned, the answer is a resounding NO, but I don't necessarily think that that's a bad thing.
Good points all - but I invite you to take a practice at my dojo. My sensei has been studying kendo for 50 years, practice is anything but fun. It's exhausting, sometimes it's painful, and it seems like it'll never end, but once it's done, you can look back and say, hmm, that wasn't so bad, was it? We do not stress competition, but when we are doing our drills, sensei explains the reason for the particular waza, what is expected, etc., same as if you were doing kata. By the time we finish a class (about 1 hr, 45 minutes or so), we can easily have lost 2 or 3 pounds, which seems to have collected in our keikogis.
Well, if you look at a 25-yr-old Godan (as a scenerio) who won the AJKC, no doubt you'll draw the "his state of mind is different" conclusion, as comparing to the Yondan you are looking at.
IMHO it's just a different level of understanding KENDO, being more skillful in KENDO - which has little to do with being Japanese or not. I bet you'd say my AJKC Godan has better kendo than the Yondan you've seen, but then it doesn't mean my Godan is "more Japanese" than your one, nor that your Yondan has a worse character than the Godan, etc.
As for the character-building part of kendo... I don't think anyone should interpret this literately. Quoting Kingofmyrrh, the Concept of Kendo simply means "train hard and be a good boy", which is just a univeral approach to any tough life people go through every day... Read a Zen or Confucius book or two will probably help better "molding your mind" than receiving brain damage from bamboo sticks.. :rolleyes:
i dont even know wtf Zen is, let alone its purpose in the modern world. It would seem that way with any one else to, meaning to me that it can't matter whether its revalvent to kendo or not.
a few of my teachers, 5th dans, all say the have asked japanese senseis about Zen, and they all say they will tell them when they are all more experienced, so unless they are lying "which is highly unlikely" what are they on about?
I will ask them tonight, and give their response tommorow. I couldn't care less what the outcome is, i still respect them. if they have been graded to such a level in japan, they must show skill and promise.
Peace (and dont forget it) :D
In general, my experience has indicated that westerners have extreme difficulty really grasping asian mentality initially, but if they are sincere in their training and practice, then they are able to understand it, sometimes better than people from the east asian realms. :)
Or even more generally, "How much sense does it make that
....
Hello,
I find your abstraction quite apropriate: " How much sense does it make? This doesn't mean "Don't do it!" but it still remains in the room as " How much sense does it make!"
I would like to start my answer with axemans remarkable statement:
This whole thread reflects this larger issue that Japan is facing about redefining "being Japanese." As an isolated place for so long in so many ways, the Japanese have a completely ingrained sense that there is something inherently "Japanese" about someone with "pure" Japanese ancestry that is different than someone who's part-Japanese, non-Japanese but born here, non-Japanese but living here......
So, no matter what "the Japanese" do, any degree of racial non-Japaneseness is a greater separator than almost any wacky thing a "pure Japanese" person does.
......
If you're not Japanese, you're borrowing it-- learning about their thing. That's cute, and all, but it'll never make you Japanese.
.....
Don't get me wrong, doing Kendo for so many years, and whatever comes out of the thread, I will do it till my last breath.
But I want to make a final draw with all of this myths and fairytales and (useless) hopes getting "japanese" or doing it "japanese style". I would like to bring down Kendo on a real base.
Kendo is good for your health, it is good for the improvement of your attitude, endurance, self-conciousness, mental strenght, resistance and some more little things. It is also good for the brotherhood of man etc.
No question, you may do it, just because you like it!
But it is still unanswered, that it is definitivly character improving and I seriously doubt, that we westerner ever will understand the depht of Kendo, lying in it's roots, created by japanese mentality.
Maybe I am on the totally wrong trip, but just a simple example:
Everytime I see japanese Yondan (only 25 yrs old) here in old Europe they are doing Kendo differently as we westerners are doing it. And I am not talking about their (faster) movements etc.... it's something how they are performing. The state of mind is different, ... strange and impressive... simple "un-express-ible"!
best regards
Hello,
wow, this post was very impressive, and the sentence above leeds me to some more thoughts....
To continue my previos post. It is an assumption, but sometimes I feel people mis-interpretating Kendo a little bit. At the end you have something as a Prussian Kendo Style. Have you ever seen that, or am I the only one? :wink:
In that case it was always easy for me to say, look at these guys, they don't have any idea about real Kendo. But now, going slowly and silently home after training and asking myself: "Man, have you any idea about real Kendo?"
best regards
b
Yes please enlighten us what Prussian Kendo is, and I suppose that it is not a positive classification. I don't think that any of us can explain what Kendo is. I do believe that all of us together have the answer what it should be.
ps This one is for the Buddhists Philosophers: No more staring at the belly button please, because it isn't really helpful in thise here one of the serious threads.
Here's a quote from that link:
"Baseball in Japan is different. It has developed differently from the American game. In America it evolved from an English ball game called rounders [we used to play rounders in primary school!-b]. In Japan it was imported as a finished product in 1873. Japanese baseball has probably retained more of the flavor of that era than the American game has. The American game has been more subject to innovation, while the Japanese game is more mindful of its past. The function that sports and popular entertainment play in a society, is intertwined with that society's culture. To expect Japanese and American fans to have identical attitudes towards baseball would be naive."
There's actually a quite interesting comparison on that page between US and Japanese baseball, of which the above is only a part. Worth reading in connection with this "Westerners and kendo" topic.
b
Most of the kids that are into kendo... could just as soon be playing basketball. It's just a thing to do. That's fine by me. As with the zen thing... there are, IMHO, a multitude of roads to the destination of clarity. Sometimes, you don't know where your road's headed. Doesn't mean you're not going anywhere.
On the other hand, the older starters seem to take the "budo" part of it seriously.
Now, what's "the budo part?" Again, probably another thread, but people (gaikokujin, in particular) throw that around like it's a thing-- an identifiable thing. It's not. It's different things to different people. Some, like some posters here at KWF, talk about old samurai death for the lord ideals. Fine. A bit anachronistic in my book, but that's their idea.
Personally, I like the vibe that I get from my sensei. It's very peaceful. Respect for the art, yourself, others... taking things seriously-- including not taking things seriously. Be where you are. He stresses harmony in all things, and I take that to mean finding the resonant note of "dying for principles," acquiescing for peace, etc.
Can "Westerners" understand it? I don't know. There's a lot of them. Unless there's something that genetically precludes us from understanding it, then the question is sort of ridiculous. My earlier comments were more in reference to the perception by many Japanese people that foreigners can't understand an essentially "Japanese" art.
The other day, I saw a thing on NHK on a white guy, American I think, who does fantastically detailed classical Japanese woodblock prints. This guy has clearly given his life to this. Anyone, Japanese or otherwise, who doesn't see that as evidence that there isn't an essential race or culture barrier to getting inside Japanese-originated ideas is probably looking for an excuse to stop trying (foreigner) or an excuse not to have to work for it (Japanese).
I haven't had the chance to keiko with many foreigners, having started my training here in Japan, but my guess is that a good student, well taught, doesn't need to be brought up on mugicha and senbei snacks to get the philosophical aspects. It's not like the kids are told bed time stories about seppuku and sengoku jidai fun. They hear about bears, Ichiro, and dudes in the woods with plates on their heads.
Well, even in the zendo, it is helpful to receive the kyosaku at times...
How many people who do kendo in Japan really care less about the 'character forming' side of things? I think you'll find that it's a very small minority. The vast, vast majority of Japanese kendo participants are those enrolled in education, from nursery all the way through to university. I've spoken with many uni students, quite a few high school students, only a very few junior high students, and quite a few elementary school students. I can assure you that almost nobody does kendo to 'build character'. The primary reason is to win in shiai, with some also enjoying training (by and large these people aren't at tough schools, where it's difficult to describe practice as 'fun').
While these guys most definitely do respect their high grade teachers (well, mostly), there is also definitely an undercurrent of thought along the lines of, 'These old guys with their character building, bushi attitude stuff are weird.'
So basically, you need to ask the question, 'Are most Japanese doing "character building" kendo?' before you consider the rest of the world. As far as I'm concerned, the answer is a resounding NO, but I don't necessarily think that that's a bad thing. If kendo really is as great at building character as these old boys say it is, then it should happen whether the participants care or not, as long as they train diligently and in accordance with basic kendo principles. Actually, to be perfectly honest, I often wonder whether all these senior grades going on about this aspect of kendo all the time aren't the real reason why kendo is in crisis in Japan.
I guess the same question could be asked about all of the Japanese Martial arts.
After living in Japan for a number of years now I have to ask the same question about the Japanese as well, what do they get out of it?
One thing is for certain here and that is the young Japanese are changing and their interest in Budo and cultural activities is fading. Budo too has changed over the years with a lot of focus being on competition and explotation of the arts. I guess that we have to find our own answer to this question and ask ourselves what do we want to get out of it. Sorry I don't have an easy answer for you.
By the way I think living here has altered my thinking......I think I'm turning Japanese.....oh no
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